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	<title>Comments on: Sunday thoughts &#8211; 13 December 2009</title>
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	<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/</link>
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		<title>By: Peter_P</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8222</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter_P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8222</guid>
		<description>Wonderful perspective, Anne. 
 
I&#039;d love to be able to hop back in time and find out what the truth really is! :-) </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful perspective, Anne. </p>
<p>I&#039;d love to be able to hop back in time and find out what the truth really is! <img src='http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Anne Lang Bundy</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8221</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Lang Bundy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 08:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8221</guid>
		<description>As a woman, and as a student (as well as a teacher) of biblical culture, I believe Bathsheba knew exactly what she was doing. A woman sensitive to her body knows when she&#039;s most likely to get pregnant, and there was great, great sensitivity to such matters in Israelite culture. I see Bathsheba as being ruthless in her seduction of David, having no regard for Uriah as she knowingly became pregnant with the king&#039;s child. 
 
Rape? I think not. David was no innocent. But Bathsheba far less so, regardless of the fact that she was likely a teenager with less sense than David should have had. I do not agree with the biblical fiction authors who give her a redemptive ending. Matthew listed the name of the harlot Rahab in the genealogy of Jesus. Yet he refuses to write Bathsheba&#039;s name, clear disdain. She is called only &quot;her of Uriah.&quot;  
 
Incidently, the child&#039;s death was necessity. The Lord had promised the Messiah to be a son of David. Had the child lived, paternity would have been questionable. David&#039;s actions murdered two people. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a woman, and as a student (as well as a teacher) of biblical culture, I believe Bathsheba knew exactly what she was doing. A woman sensitive to her body knows when she&#039;s most likely to get pregnant, and there was great, great sensitivity to such matters in Israelite culture. I see Bathsheba as being ruthless in her seduction of David, having no regard for Uriah as she knowingly became pregnant with the king&#039;s child. </p>
<p>Rape? I think not. David was no innocent. But Bathsheba far less so, regardless of the fact that she was likely a teenager with less sense than David should have had. I do not agree with the biblical fiction authors who give her a redemptive ending. Matthew listed the name of the harlot Rahab in the genealogy of Jesus. Yet he refuses to write Bathsheba&#039;s name, clear disdain. She is called only &quot;her of Uriah.&quot;  </p>
<p>Incidently, the child&#039;s death was necessity. The Lord had promised the Messiah to be a son of David. Had the child lived, paternity would have been questionable. David&#039;s actions murdered two people.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter_P</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8190</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter_P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8190</guid>
		<description>Hi Liz, Thanks for the great comment. 
 
The impression I get from the story is that he took a married woman and ordered her to have sex with him. He didn&#039;t need to physically hold her down or beat her, the fear of his power did the same thing. 
 
His power acted like one of those date-rape drugs, she didn&#039;t want it to happen but she was powerless to stop it. 
 
I do still concede though that she may have been willing or even the instigator! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Liz, Thanks for the great comment. </p>
<p>The impression I get from the story is that he took a married woman and ordered her to have sex with him. He didn&#039;t need to physically hold her down or beat her, the fear of his power did the same thing. </p>
<p>His power acted like one of those date-rape drugs, she didn&#039;t want it to happen but she was powerless to stop it. </p>
<p>I do still concede though that she may have been willing or even the instigator!</p>
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		<title>By: Liz</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8188</link>
		<dc:creator>Liz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 19:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8188</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad you brought up Esther, because that&#039;s a comparison I thought of when I read your post. I disagree with your view that it was rape as we would define it today. I don&#039;t think he held her down or beat her. Now yes, it&#039;s highly likely that she could have been punished for saying no, just as Esther could have. I also think of Dinah&#039;s story. Her brothers call it rape because they want a reason to fight, but the prince wants to marry her and is willing to pay a bride-price for her. Would you do that to someone you had raped? We don&#039;t get to hear her opinion. I think it all boils down to the fact that women were property and whether they were coerced or willing is irrelevant in some ways because either way they had no right. It was going to happen, and the only choice they had was to make it easy or difficult. David&#039;s sin is the same whether he was an adulterous murderer or a rapist murderer, he took advantage of the power that had been granted to him and he misused it to hurt people. However, God still forgave him and turned everything to good. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m glad you brought up Esther, because that&#039;s a comparison I thought of when I read your post. I disagree with your view that it was rape as we would define it today. I don&#039;t think he held her down or beat her. Now yes, it&#039;s highly likely that she could have been punished for saying no, just as Esther could have. I also think of Dinah&#039;s story. Her brothers call it rape because they want a reason to fight, but the prince wants to marry her and is willing to pay a bride-price for her. Would you do that to someone you had raped? We don&#039;t get to hear her opinion. I think it all boils down to the fact that women were property and whether they were coerced or willing is irrelevant in some ways because either way they had no right. It was going to happen, and the only choice they had was to make it easy or difficult. David&#039;s sin is the same whether he was an adulterous murderer or a rapist murderer, he took advantage of the power that had been granted to him and he misused it to hurt people. However, God still forgave him and turned everything to good.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8180</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8180</guid>
		<description>I understand the viewpoint that she did not have an option to say no. 
 
But she suffered when her son died as punishment for David&#039;s sin.   That seems to suggest that she was complicit.   How so I don&#039;t know.   And either way, David was wrong.  It&#039;s not like Bathseba could have raped him.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand the viewpoint that she did not have an option to say no. </p>
<p>But she suffered when her son died as punishment for David&#039;s sin.   That seems to suggest that she was complicit.   How so I don&#039;t know.   And either way, David was wrong.  It&#039;s not like Bathseba could have raped him.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter_P</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8161</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter_P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:27:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8161</guid>
		<description>GREAT response, Nick! 
 
I had not considered Bathsheba&#039;s complicit guilt if she had been a willing party. 
 
It&#039;s very interesting how easy it is to read this story differently depending on what position you come at it from. 
 
I think of Bathsheba as being an Esther kind of character. Taken unwillingly but deciding that she had to make the most of the situation even though she didn&#039;t want to be there. 
 
The message she sent to David telling him she&#039;s pregnant, I read as being one of revenge. &quot;You took me against my will and know I&#039;m preggers. My husband&#039;s away at war... people can count... let&#039;s see you cover this one up!&quot; 
 
In those times, women were third class citizens at best. I read her whole story as one of a woman trying to protect and do the best for those she loved. 
 
If I come at it from the angle of thinking she&#039;s a bit of a Jezabel characterthen the whole thing looks different. David&#039;s on the roof, so what does she do? she strips off and takes a bath, knowing he can see her and hoping to seduce him. 
 
Either way... lots of sin and BUCKETS of forgiveness! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GREAT response, Nick! </p>
<p>I had not considered Bathsheba&#039;s complicit guilt if she had been a willing party. </p>
<p>It&#039;s very interesting how easy it is to read this story differently depending on what position you come at it from. </p>
<p>I think of Bathsheba as being an Esther kind of character. Taken unwillingly but deciding that she had to make the most of the situation even though she didn&#039;t want to be there. </p>
<p>The message she sent to David telling him she&#039;s pregnant, I read as being one of revenge. &quot;You took me against my will and know I&#039;m preggers. My husband&#039;s away at war&#8230; people can count&#8230; let&#039;s see you cover this one up!&quot; </p>
<p>In those times, women were third class citizens at best. I read her whole story as one of a woman trying to protect and do the best for those she loved. </p>
<p>If I come at it from the angle of thinking she&#039;s a bit of a Jezabel characterthen the whole thing looks different. David&#039;s on the roof, so what does she do? she strips off and takes a bath, knowing he can see her and hoping to seduce him. </p>
<p>Either way&#8230; lots of sin and BUCKETS of forgiveness!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter_P</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8160</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter_P</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 07:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8160</guid>
		<description>Thank you. 
 
Don&#039;t ever doubt God&#039;s love, forgiveness and gift of salvation! </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you. </p>
<p>Don&#039;t ever doubt God&#039;s love, forgiveness and gift of salvation!</p>
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		<title>By: Nick the Geek</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8150</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick the Geek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 02:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8150</guid>
		<description>Regarding the discussion of &quot;rape or not&quot; I feel it is likely that Bathsheba was a willing culprit to a point.  There isn&#039;t a lot of detail given, but we have this.  She didn&#039;t tell her husband but apparently wanted to go along with the cover-up.  Now, she might have been forced into it but my reading leaves me thinking she wanted to work with David not against him.  Further is the grief both she and David experience at the loss.  We see that when Solomon is conceived David goes to her to &quot;comfort her.&quot;  She wanted the child and didn&#039;t seem to have much in line of mixed emotions.  She grieved the loss and David comforted her and then she bore another child.  She goes on to have a pretty good relationship with David even to the point of being able to give him the extra push he needed to publicly endorse Solomon as king. 
 
Here&#039;s the thing, I see it that not only was David involved in adultery and murder, I think Bathsheba was as well.  She aspired to be more.  I wouldn&#039;t go as far as to say she enticed David, but the rest of the story makes it pretty clear she made good use of her gained power.  
 
Maybe you could call what David did rape in the same way that a man of great power taking advantage of a young woman, say an intern, might be called rape.  There is a certain point where consent isn&#039;t really consent. The law recognizes this idea when it places statutory limitations on sex involving minors.  Even with consent it isn&#039;t reasonable.  Ethical guidelines recognizes this where it is stated that a professor should not have sex with a student or an officer with an enlisted subordinate.  
 
However, if we see Bathsheba&#039;s involvement as more than passive or coerced then we see an even bigger picture of God&#039;s grace.  He has grace to cover the Adultery and murder, but also grace to cover the pain of guilt that Bathsheba certainly felt. She had guilt for betraying her husband.  Even if forced she probable felt guilt, and if she was the impressed and flattered young woman I think then she probably felt even more guilt. She felt guilt for allowing her husband&#039;s death.  She participated in the cover-up before and after. She didn&#039;t tell him, didn&#039;t warn him.  I imagine she thought about that more than once, and worse probably thought about all that she gained from it and then felt more guilty. Her guilt and mixed emotions probably led to more guilt when they lost the child.  She almost certainly blamed herself which led to great big huge heaping helpings of guilt. 
 
Despite all of that we see that she didn&#039;t grow old and bitter. She genuinely loved Solomon and tried to help others at various times.  She found forgiveness and appeared to have let go of any guilt she felt. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the discussion of &quot;rape or not&quot; I feel it is likely that Bathsheba was a willing culprit to a point.  There isn&#039;t a lot of detail given, but we have this.  She didn&#039;t tell her husband but apparently wanted to go along with the cover-up.  Now, she might have been forced into it but my reading leaves me thinking she wanted to work with David not against him.  Further is the grief both she and David experience at the loss.  We see that when Solomon is conceived David goes to her to &quot;comfort her.&quot;  She wanted the child and didn&#039;t seem to have much in line of mixed emotions.  She grieved the loss and David comforted her and then she bore another child.  She goes on to have a pretty good relationship with David even to the point of being able to give him the extra push he needed to publicly endorse Solomon as king. </p>
<p>Here&#039;s the thing, I see it that not only was David involved in adultery and murder, I think Bathsheba was as well.  She aspired to be more.  I wouldn&#039;t go as far as to say she enticed David, but the rest of the story makes it pretty clear she made good use of her gained power.  </p>
<p>Maybe you could call what David did rape in the same way that a man of great power taking advantage of a young woman, say an intern, might be called rape.  There is a certain point where consent isn&#039;t really consent. The law recognizes this idea when it places statutory limitations on sex involving minors.  Even with consent it isn&#039;t reasonable.  Ethical guidelines recognizes this where it is stated that a professor should not have sex with a student or an officer with an enlisted subordinate.  </p>
<p>However, if we see Bathsheba&#039;s involvement as more than passive or coerced then we see an even bigger picture of God&#039;s grace.  He has grace to cover the Adultery and murder, but also grace to cover the pain of guilt that Bathsheba certainly felt. She had guilt for betraying her husband.  Even if forced she probable felt guilt, and if she was the impressed and flattered young woman I think then she probably felt even more guilt. She felt guilt for allowing her husband&#039;s death.  She participated in the cover-up before and after. She didn&#039;t tell him, didn&#039;t warn him.  I imagine she thought about that more than once, and worse probably thought about all that she gained from it and then felt more guilty. Her guilt and mixed emotions probably led to more guilt when they lost the child.  She almost certainly blamed herself which led to great big huge heaping helpings of guilt. </p>
<p>Despite all of that we see that she didn&#039;t grow old and bitter. She genuinely loved Solomon and tried to help others at various times.  She found forgiveness and appeared to have let go of any guilt she felt.</p>
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		<title>By: S. Etole</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8147</link>
		<dc:creator>S. Etole</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/?p=1794#comment-8147</guid>
		<description>Sometimes you read a post and go away wondering what the person was trying to say. This isn&#039;t one of those times. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes you read a post and go away wondering what the person was trying to say. This isn&#039;t one of those times.</p>
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		<title>By: uberVU - social comments</title>
		<link>http://blog.hafchurch.org/peter/index.php/2009/12/sunday-thoughts-13-december-2009/comment-page-1/#comment-8145</link>
		<dc:creator>uberVU - social comments</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Dec 2009 21:36:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Social comments and analytics for this post...&lt;/strong&gt;

This post was mentioned on Twitter by gyoung9751: Sunday Thoughts, post by @PeterPollock. http://bit.ly/4ZSvt2...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Social comments and analytics for this post&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>This post was mentioned on Twitter by gyoung9751: Sunday Thoughts, post by @PeterPollock. <a href="http://bit.ly/4ZSvt2.." rel="nofollow">http://bit.ly/4ZSvt2..</a>.</p>
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